Curse

Killed u man · Apr 28, 2010, 02:57 PM // 14:57

With the recent re-incarnation of the sin under the form of an all to familiar SW bar, I kinda want to know how people feel about Assassins anno 2010, and if the vision of the Assassin is still as one-dimensional as it was 3-4 years ago.

For starters I would like to link to my previous thread, in which I pointed out obvious flaws (Which for some reason many people still don't realize) in both the Assassin and the Warrior class, aswell as possible easy solutions to make Sins a more viable way to frontline.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/b...tml?t=10425515

To recap that thread, aswell the intire issue we're facing here:

Warrior's are too good at what they do, and Sins never really got their niche (Shadowsteps and combos) implemented well.

Though part of that old thread is outdate, because with the recent nerf of Primal Rage, Warrior's did have to give in some space on map control in favor of the Sin. (Stonefists is another one of those things that make a Warrior a Warrior, but at the same time puts any other class at a major disadvantage)

However, with the recent update to SW, Anet has shown that Sins CAN be a viable frontliner, given they do enough pressure in between their combos. Though, I don't think anyone will disagree on the fact that SW isn't something we really want in a meta, now we atleast know that, given enough power, Sins can be a versatile frontliner, with both 8v8 stand options, aswell as major split abilities.

This is pretty much what I predicted in the thread linked earlier, yet again implemented by Anet in the wrong way. The matter of fact is, despite how many of you hate it, the combo mechanic and the shadowstep mechanic do work. If balanced right, that is.

For starters, a SW sin in it's current state can pretty much spam his bar empty, roll his head over the keyboard, yet still playing the bar at high efficiency because there is no real punishment for being bad at the bar. (Unlike Warriors who get reduced adrenaline and waylesser kills -Warrior = teamplay-)

Secondly, there's Shadow Walk, another one of those skills that was waiting to get abused in GvG for the past 2 years. (GvG'ers tend to be really slow when it comes down to non-meta skills) Everything about that skill shows what shadowsteps shouldn't be. It throws every form of positioning for both you or the enemy team out of the window, it can be used to save your ass when you're overextended (It can even be used when KD'd) and most importantly, it can be used to give you a safe anchor for the next 30 seconds, granting you pretty much godmode and free play in the enemy's base.

Yet, I don't want to see SW sins nerfed, because they are the last viable sin bar left in GvG (Don't mention Shattering Assault or Wastrel's Collapse. One is still a completely imbalanced brainless buttonbasher, the other one is byob farm food), aswell as the last viable sin bar left in pretty much every other format.

Instead, I want to see Anet tweak the bar so that it promotes more brainpower, and less buttonbashpower, and they should do that as following:

Punishment for spamming.

They need to add a "This skill is disabled for +xx seconds when it is blocked or misses" to every offhand attack in the game. To compensate for this "nerf", they also would have to up the damage of both lead and offhand attacks by +- 15-20 damage per attack skill.

Shadowsteps need to be tied to your position, with greater rewards than they have now, but reserved for sins only:

Quote:

Dark Prison 5E 3/4A 20R
Spell. If target foe isn't within area of an ally, you shadowstep to target foe. If that foe was moving, he moves 50% slower for 3...8 seconds. All your non-dagger attack skills are disabled for 5 seconds.

Quote:

Death's Charge 5E 3/4A 15R
Spell. If target foe isn't within area of an ally, you shadowstep to target foe and that foe takes 30...70 damage. All your non-dagger attack skills are disabled for 5 seconds.

Illustrates what I believe shadowsteps should have been all along. No aftercast and semi-interruptable with 3/4 second cast time. Being in deadly and shadow arts as they are, it's unlikely you'll get fast casts on them, and if you do, you probably deserve it for being good enough to swap to a 20/20 staff...

Obviously skill specific shadowsteps (Shadow Walk) need to be nerfed into the ground. GW simply can not coop with one character virtually being at 2 spots at the same time.

On top of all these, I'm still in favor of severly buffing every dual attack out there in attack speed (1s activating), aswell as giving all of them a fast recharge (+-4 seconds), but no more big + damage buffers. (so no more instagib, but rather fast mediocre damage combos of about 200-250 damage per L-O-D)

With atleast one more year ahead of us (Till GW2), and Anet clearly showing they are willing to make this work, I believe it can be done...

bungusmaximus · Apr 28, 2010, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Interesting suggestions, I personally am really biased and dislike sins in any meta, I also dislike going against them. I very much like your ideas though. I just disagree with keeping SW the way it is though because it's a PITA in hex builds imho. Up the cast time if u ask me.

reaper with no name · Apr 28, 2010, 03:09 PM // 15:09

I'd prefer they do away with attack chains (or at least dual attacks) altogether. The entire mechanic as it is currently implemented promotes nothing but mindless spam since it forces you to take 3 skills just to use any one of them. This means that even if assassins became as powerful as warriors in PvP, they'd be overpowered due to the lack of skill required to play them.

Shadowsteps...Bad mechanic no matter how you look at it. Super fast IMS would have been better.

Killed u man · Apr 28, 2010, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Yeah, I'm definatly not in favor of a skill that's uninterruptable, a conditionless snare and a pretty much conditionless (irony) free 25 DPS. (Conditions are easy to apply, really easy)

But SW shows that sins CAN pressure and split at the same time. (Which is what makes a viable frontline) I'm all in favor of a SW nerf, as long as Anet implements other buffs (Be it mine, be it other suggestions) to keep Sins a viable profession in PvP.

Killed u man · Apr 28, 2010, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I'd prefer they do away with attack chains (or at least dual attacks) altogether. The entire mechanic as it is currently implemented promotes nothing but mindless spam since it forces you to take 3 skills just to use any one of them. This means that even if assassins became as powerful as warriors in PvP, they'd be overpowered due to the lack of skill required to play them.

Shadowsteps...Bad mechanic no matter how you look at it. Super fast IMS would have been better.

Well, if you do away with combos, you're just going to create a Warrior carbon copy (as mentioned in the other thread). It comes down to finding a healthy punishment for spamming, because as you said:

Quote:

promotes nothing but mindless spam since it forces you to take 3 skills just to use any one of them. This means that even if assassins became as powerful as warriors in PvP, they'd be overpowered due to the lack of skill required to play them.

The fact that sins might become more DPS than a Warrior is no problem, as long as you can assure that bad people can not reach such a level. People spamming under blind or protted targets (Block + miss) should get a +4-6 seconds disable on their chain, reducing their damage to a mere 250 damage per +- 8 seconds. (As a reg combo will take about 3-4 seconds to recharge)

It pretty much comes down to playing with numbers:

How much of a disable time is needed to make sure a bad player will do low DPS and how much damage is needed to make sure a good player will do high DPS.

I don't think GW supports super fast (+ 200%) IMS. Not to mention rubberbanding or graphical support.

Gift3d · Apr 28, 2010, 03:37 PM // 15:37

assassin - easiest class to play, easiest melee class to counter. that's how i've always seen it. the only case in the game where the class is only as good as its skills. i say keep it that way, people lacking originality/intelligence/basic motor skills (the lot of guild wars' population) need something to resort to.

Sankt Hallvard · Apr 28, 2010, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I kinda want to know how people feel about Assassins anno 2010

Well, since you ask: They are horrible.

Here's my suggestion on how to fix the sin: Revert all the fast activating attacks, revert SW. Never buff a single sin skill again. Voila, problem fixed!

Gift3d · Apr 28, 2010, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Well, since you ask: They are horrible.

Here's my suggestion on how to fix the sin: Revert all the fast activating attacks, revert SW. Never buff a single sin skill again. Voila, problem fixed!

they do that and it's back to palm strike. there's always been a 12345ezpz sin build that every assassin and their mother runs. that's the whole point of the class.

-Pluto- · Apr 28, 2010, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Don't make more non-elite shadow steps viable. Low recharge non-elite deaths charge or death prison were shitty skills on sins, not just warriors.

Honestly, I think they should just release a pvp version of all sins skills with 25e cost, 90s recharge and all values top out at 5. If anything might be used as an alternative frontline, I'd rather see dervishes more (though I'd be fine not seeing either). At least their aoe attack rewards awareness of the other team's positioning to get the most amount of damage... but that would be for another thread.

If they just nerf seeping wound that should be enough though. The skill simply does too much with no drawback. The snare needs to AT THE VERY LEAST be conditional, like the damage. This skill is possibly the most powerful and flexible assassin skill of all time, so nerfing it should be obvious. Far weaker skills than Seeping Wound have been deemed OP and consequently nerfed. On the other hand the dev update and the stuff I'm hearing from others about the next balance update hasn't mentioned the skill at all. Hopefully, in some fictitious conversation with the live team, I'd say "you didn't talk about seeping wound for the next update," and they'd just say, "duh, we thought nerfing it was obvious enough to go unsaid."

Dace Hunters · Apr 28, 2010, 05:46 PM // 17:46

The hatred and bias against sins out there always amazes me...probably because of how dangerous a sin can be if used right, weve all been spiked to death by a random sin in RA...the problem is that even a chimpanzee can use a sin right with most builds.

Making good sin builds requires being reasonably good at the game....playing them usually doesn't. Maybe we should just remove all the pvp sin bars from pvx? :P

Yes retarded sins are way too frequent, hell i once had a frenzy sin on my team in RA attacking through empathy....then flaming me for being a bad monk when he died...
But that doesn't mean sins should be nerfed to the ground, when they're that stupid its not hard to counter them, they're utterly predictable. I particularly like D-shotting palm strike or Shield bashing their lead attack and then watching them wander around with a useless skill bar for 20 seconds (actually most of them carry on their combo without realising they are doing nothing). I mean ive even rupted SW once or twice by predicting them and being lucky as hell

I think adding in a punishment for spamming combos is a good idea, but not for something like getting an attack blocked. Monks can keep guardian up 100% of the time so you would never be able to get off a chain. Wars could still generate plenty of damage from auto attacking, even if they couldnt use skills. But sins deal awful damage from auto attacking and require skills to get any decent dps. Maybe if you use a skill when your not supposed to (off hand when your lead missed/was blocked) it should be disabled for its normal duration plus 4 seconds or something.

Terrible Surgeon · Apr 28, 2010, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

assassin - easiest class to play, easiest melee class to counter. i say keep it that way, people lacking originality/intelligence/basic motor skills (the lot of guild wars' population) need something to resort to.

So...i bet you play assassin all the time?

t00115577 · Apr 28, 2010, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon

So...i bet you play assassin all the time?

Must do cause he is spot on. Never had much trouble vs sins, minus the odd lucky spike. Id rather have 2 sins attacking me than 1 good warrior.

Soon as 1 stupidly OP sin build gets nerfed Anet will buff another elite making a new OP build.

What I would like to see is a GOOD shadowstep for pve only, one with very low recharge and low energy cost (ie. 1). OP I know, but hey its PVE who cares.

*lemming* · Apr 28, 2010, 08:00 PM // 20:00

You're right that Shadow Walk was waiting to be broken, but Seeping in its current form combines with it uniquely to be a kill threat on something you're in radar range of.

Rocky Rockstar · Apr 28, 2010, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Assassin are fine as they are now. For 90% of the assassins I have met in RA, they instant death if you put empathy/vor/insidious on them, as they attack 100x times a second, so they are dead before they realize they have been hexed.

They are called assassins, so I think its only appropriate that they can kill people quickly.

EDIT: What is up with all the pvxwiki hate anyways? There are a handful of good skills, and good combo of skills in guild wars, and even if you didnt have pvx, I think most people would figure those builds out (more or less anyways (for all professions) ).

*lemming* · Apr 28, 2010, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocky Rockstar

Assassin are fine as they are now. For 90% of the assassins I have met in RA, they instant death if you put empathy/vor/insidious on them, as they attack 100x times a second, so they are dead before they realize they have been hexed.

They are called assassins, so I think its only appropriate that they can kill people quickly.

EDIT: What is up with all the pvxwiki hate anyways? There are a handful of good skills, and good combo of skills in guild wars, and even if you didnt have pvx, I think most people would figure those builds out (more or less anyways (for all professions) ).

You evidently didn't watch the monthly.

Sankt Hallvard · Apr 28, 2010, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

You evidently didn't watch the monthly.

Don't be such an elitist. Sins are fine because most of them blow up to empathy in RA. And like the other guy here mentioned, sometimes you get lucky and dshot seeping wound or jagged strike. Also you can put diversion on them and they will almost always divert their lead attack, or you can put up shield bash and they will die.

kedde · Apr 29, 2010, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

assassin - easiest class to play, easiest melee class to counter. that's how i've always seen it. the only case in the game where the class is only as good as its skills. i say keep it that way, people lacking originality/intelligence/basic motor skills (the lot of guild wars' population) need something to resort to.

That's exactly what there needs to not be.
If you let retards take the easy way out forever, you'll never get them to quit or get better.

tealspikes · Apr 29, 2010, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

However, with the recent update to SW, Anet has shown that Sins CAN be a viable frontliner, given they do enough pressure in between their combos.

All Anet has shown is that assassins can be viable frontliners when they are made too powerful. Cheap, spammable, quick-activating attack skills are the biggest offender. Since their buffs they have done nothing but enable the next faceroll frontline build. Sw is a huge problem of its own. There's probably tons of OP stuff people haven't even discovered with those 1/2 activ sin combos. Even if when they nerf escape, SA, coward, and hopefully sw, people will just find the next way to abuse those attacks because they have always been the root of the problem.

urania · Apr 29, 2010, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Don't be such an elitist. Sins are fine because most of them blow up to empathy in RA. And like the other guy here mentioned, sometimes you get lucky and dshot seeping wound or jagged strike. Also you can put diversion on them and they will almost always divert their lead attack, or you can put up shield bash and they will die.

If you judge the strenght of a build/proffession just by how easily it can be rps'ed, it simply means it's OP since you can't use any other argument really. =p
It isnt far from the clichéed "You can divert it, hence it's not OP."

It doesnt really matter if they're sins when emapthy lands - the non-retarded ones will stop attacking fast enough and those that don't would explode on a (frenzy or non-frenzy) warrior, paragon or a dervish too.

Sankt Hallvard · Apr 29, 2010, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

If you judge the strenght of a build/proffession just by how easily it can be rps'ed, it simply means it's OP since you can't use any other argument really. =p
It isnt far from the clichéed "You can divert it, hence it's not OP."

It doesnt really matter if they're sins when emapthy lands - the non-retarded ones will stop attacking fast enough and those that don't would explode on a (frenzy or non-frenzy) warrior, paragon or a dervish too.

Blatant sarcasm is obviously lost on you.